Repeatedly in the past I've broached the subject of finding the earliest use of an expr without resorting to paid sites, such as the logophiles use to great advantage over us cheapskates

Meantime however, I ran across this Google algorithm...

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&tab=wn&q=

...which permits you not only to only to search old news but to place the hits in chronological order. I wonder whether you also might not find it useful for the purpose

I've never dated a neologism, but then I have been married for quite a while.

You've done it again, zmj! You've pinched my joke before I could write it!

zm, arnie: Good one. I've got to confess I consulted my thesaurus on this one but couldn't find a better term than "dating"

Meanwhile I hope you all find the link useful

See my post here.

nerd: I had forgotten where I learned of it and yield you full credit

It's the onset of Alzheimer's with the birthday of my 77th year

I had begun to thnk I was the oldest member of this community, dalehileman, until I read your latest post.

My date of birth is 8 June 1930. What's yours?

Can you remember ??

~~~ jerry

jerry: Nov 11 1930. Congratulations, you are indeed older than I

Thus in only a few days I will be embarking on my 77th year

I had thought nobody could be older than I

Evidently you're still spry and coherent as our cohorts drop like flies all around us

You are both old as dirt... what are you doing still reading and writing and questioning?? Aren't you into knitting as CW does?

11/11... Dalehileman and I have a birthday... God loves the Armistice babies....

You will turn one or both into sobersides with that remark!

Mighty fine to have septuagenarians among us--and 77's such a nice number!

No octagenarians? I know of at least one sexagenarian, though why it can't be hexagenarian, I do not know.

Wordmatic

though why it can't be hexagenarian, I do not know.

Because whoever coined the word, sexagenarian, decided to use the Latin word, sexagenarius, rather a Greek one. Latin sexagenarius is a form of sexaginta '60': the Greek for '60' is hexakonta.

[Fixed formatting error.]

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KHC: While I concede it's androgynous, I'm a Male Dale so wouldn't be expected to knit. However, if that's in the sense of "repair," I do mend the roof, tend to the pool and two ponds, cinch up the plumbing, and other minor household duties though I hate it

Happy upcoming birthday. However, God doesn't believe I exist

About reading, writing, etc, I'm just as surprised as you. But who is CW

word: Thank you for that term "sobersides," a new one on me and I will endeavor to remember and use it. However, I'm not one of them. In fact I was banned from a board of this sort for excessive persiflage

Hope that's a new one on you

When the proper time comes, Dale and I might be persuaded to tell you youngsters what it's like to look back at a full decade of SEXagenarianism.

Let us know when you think you are at the right stage of your development for possessing that kind of knowledge.

quote:

persiflage...It's not a new one on me, but I do have to look it up.

Now that I did, I'd say that persiflage is the best thing about Wordcraft, so at least you know you can't get kicked out of this one for that!

sexa vs. hexa--thanks for the classical language lesson. I am ashamed to say I have never studied either. Is the hexa decade too old to start? (ignoring the offer of a free lecture.... will never reach the proper stage of development for that!)

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I'm a Male Dale so wouldn't be expected to knit.

Ahhh...men can knit, can't they? I mean, they have fingers and brains and everything (usually).

As for sobersides, see here, Dale.

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I'm a Male Dale so wouldn't be expected to knit.

When I was in primary school (that's pre-11 years) I was told I had to play football. just one game was enough to instill into me a lifelong hatred for football and everything associated with it and I told me teacher that I wasn't going to play football ever agin.

After a few rows she told me that if I didn't play football then I would have to sit in the girls' class and I said, "OK, that's fine with me" (or words to that effect). So I, and my friend Christopher Wright, sat in the warm and dry with the girls where I learnt to knit, sew, embroider and darn. These skills have stayed with me the rest of my life and I consider they are far more useful than the distinctly dubious talent of being able to kick a ball straight.

Sadly I didn't have the same option at secondary school as it was single-sex in those days. But I managed to avoid football since the school only played rugby and I soon discovered cross-country running. That kept me away from team sports and balls until I discovered target rifle shooting and thus I ended my sporting days - as a member of the school shooting team.

I was just glancing back through the threads and wasn't thinking clearly (obviously) but it just struck me - the title of this thread. I thought "how long have you been dating and how good-looking is this neologism, anyway?"

LOL

Rich: Your followup struck a chord as I don't like football either

When I joined I think was the fifth grade in Loda, Ill., at recess I noted a kind of segregation: the girls conducted various feminine activities separately in a group while the boys played baseball. Now, even at that tender age I LIKED girls; so I opted instead to play with them. They were delighted

After a couple days of this, however, I had to ask myself why, when it occurred to me that the guys might interpret my choice as strange and effeminate. So, I switched over thereafter to playing baseball

Even thought I hated it too

I didn't really dislike football at school; I was just very bad at it. I soon discovered that I could pretend to be even worse than I actually was and no-one would ever pick me for a team. I ended up with the 'left-overs' who were equally as bad/uninterested as I was, and spent my time doing nothing. No teacher was ever interested in us and we were always on the field furthest from the main buildings, out of sight.

Richard's mention of cross-country running brings back horrific memories; if we couldn't get out of it we used to amble round the course, only putting on a show of running at the start and when we passed the finish line during the laps. By the time we'd finished everyone had packed up and gone home.

The only civilised sport was cricket, where the majority of the batting side would lie about making rude remarks, and most of the fielding side were just standing around.

Jerry: The Neocons woud expurgate your followup as it suggests us older farts might still be interested in sex

Arnie: In mandatory college athletics the other options were full up and so they shunted me off to a boxing class. After the first session I complained bitterly, and luckily got shifted to archery. That was fun

POLITICALLY INCORRECT WARNING
This report contains a politically incorrect and potentially offensive description of a football pitch.

When I was at school the game was football. We had three football pitches. On the first pitch, a full size pitch, the first team and the hopefuls used to play during double sports every Wednesday afternoon.
Those who were less skilled but still keen as mustard played on the slightly smaller second pitch. Tucked away in the far corner was a small pitch that was generally called by teachers and pupils alike "The spazzers' pitch" (Sorry, but they were more offensive days) On this pitch the hopeless and the useless would be sent to play. I was well down among the hopeless and the useless.
Now on this pitch we would mostly lie about on the grassy bank at the north end and if anyone was looking maybe make a token show of kicking a ball. Mostly though noone was looking.

The trouble always came when everyone showed up on a sports day. Then there would be too many players for the first pitch and the overspill onto the second pitch would displace some of the keen buggers down to us. They would try to make us play football against them. As noone was interested they would run up scores of ninety nil and expect us to care that we had been soundly defeated. We never changed ends and we always insisted on playing at the north end. This was so that when they scored their endless goals against us the ball would bounce back from the slope and we wouldn't have to run after it. (The school goals had no nets.)As we never scored in their goal at the south end the problem never arose there. We didn't care, of course.

Ah school days.

As for cross-country running that was something else they tried to make us do. There was a group of us who also didn't care for that so we would jog out of the school gates, stroll to the end of the street where there was a hill with a small park hidden by some trees and sit around there for an hour before strolling back and jogging into the school gates.

I'm sure we were fooling noone but as far as I recall we were never challenged about it.

------------

Now hands up people, is there anyone here who was good at sports and liked sports at school. Come on, don't be shy. We won't mind. Honestly.

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Now hands up people, is there anyone here who was good at sports and liked sports at school. Come on, don't be shy. We won't mind. Honestly.

<sound of crickets chirping />

nev: Yes, when I was in I think 3d grade in Munising, Michigan, I developed an interest in the sport of leaping from one standing position to another, one's score based on the linear measure of each effort

I was an indroverted kid and this was something one did alone

However, just as I was getting good at it my father, a CCC instructor, was transferred from there to Chicago, when I lost interest in the sport

I believe it is called broad jumping

I was terrible at sports. I could not catch or throw or kick or hit a ball with any kind of accuracy. In the US in those days, gym class was required all the way through high school, but there were no varsity sports for girls after school in the upper grades as there were for boys. The only sport I loved was swimming and I was pretty good at it. I was not a competitive swimmer, but passed through all of the Red Cross classes until eventually I became an instructor and spent two college summers teaching swimming and working as a life guard. Don't ask me to catch, throw or kick anything today. My most frequent exercise is walking the dog. I only get to swim occasionally, but still love it.

WM

Is there some connection with this evident dislike of sports and the enjoyment or words and language? I have to say I have never heard an articulate footballer.

articulate footballer

I knew one in highschool. He was a star (American) football player and wrote great short stories. He was a staff member of our literary magazine, too. Genuininely nice fellow, who later ran a bar with his older brother. Only place where I officially had a tab. He was articulate and a great story teller.

zm: Perhaps Rich is right and you have provided the exception that proves the rule. How many other such sports-ppundits did you know

But I'm gratified to note that so many of us have the guts to disavow sportsophilia. No doubt the Neocons and the Nascar bunch would accuse us of being effeminate or at least fauxmo

By coincidence the latter was today's UD word:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fauxmosexual

How many other such sports-ppundits did you know

I didn't know many other football players, but then we tended to move in different social circles.

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No doubt the Neocons and the Nascar bunch would accuse us of being effeminate or at least fauxmo

Judging by the previous posts they wouldn't have the vocabulary! Although I suppose they could probably get the same meaning across in other words ...

The one thing that truly upset me about my undergrad school was the required physical education. I eschewed the general gym class and took synchronized swimming. I loved it, but still didn't have the wherewithal to keep at it after the required credits were achieved. I remember that being upside-down in the water is really painful when you have a sinus infection. I still remember enough of the sport to respect and admire the fine athleticism that is required of the sport. I do go swimming as often as possible, generally 2-3 times a week, but I do not, alas, have the abdominal muscles to put my legs in the air while swimming.

And Dale? I am CW - this is to differentiate me from another Cat who posts here.

Richard - care to share some knitting pics? Mine are posted on one of my blogs.

Well, I like sports, and I love words and language. I really don't think liking words and language has a whole lot to do with liking or disliking sports...though I don't know for sure. Richard, do you have one of your handy surveys to post on the subject?

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I really don't think liking words and language has a whole lot to do with liking or disliking sports...though I don't know for sure. Richard, do you have one of your handy surveys to post on the subject?

Sadly no. But it would seem a likely hypothesis. If you spend a large proportion of your time on the sporst field then you can't spend that time in the library - and vice versa.

In England there is a great deal of peer pressure on male children to be sporty and those with more academic preferences (swots, we used to call them) are likely to be bullied. Indeed, I was subject to just this sort of pressure to the extent that I joined the school boxing club. I hated the sport but the reputation it had meant that I was thereafter left alone, "Hey, don't touch him - he's in the boxing club!"

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If you spend a large proportion of your time on the sports field then you can't spend that time in the library

Actually that's not entirely true. My daughter would be an example of someone who loves language and is an excellent natural athlete. Participating in some sports involves a lot of waiting around -- to compete, to practice, to use the equipment -- and she's always got a book.

I really don't think liking words and language has a whole lot to do with liking or disliking sports.

Remember stereotypes don't have to be true, just soothing to their holder. I work with quite a few people, all rather well educated and about half of them women, who enjoy sports immensely. I don't, but we still get along personally and professionally. I've also known some rather thick people who don't like sports, so go figure.

I'd also be gratified to learn whether anyone might have found my original link useful for some purpose or another

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If you spend a large proportion of your time on the sporst field then you can't spend that time in the library - and vice versa.

Well, that assumes that the person in the library has absolutely no other life...and just spends it in the library.

People who spend lots of time in libraries can also have all sorts of interests where they spend time, such as watching or playing football or maybe drinking good beer or going to motorcycle or Rolls Royce shows...whatever. I would hope most people would have other interests, beyond spending time in the library.

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Well, that assumes that the person in the library has absolutely no other life...and just spends it in the library.

That's not what I said.

I said that time spent on the sports field can't be spent in the library. I did not say, or suggest, that time not spent on the sports field must be spent in the library

Mine certainly wasn't! I spent most of the time I 'saved' from not visiting sports fields just hanging about with my mates doing nothing much. I did, however, find some time to visit the library, though.

A group of my old high school classmates has gotten together via an e-mail group after 40 or more years of no contact. Here's what became of the co-captains of our (American) football team, both of whom are far more intelligent than most people I know: One went to Princeton on a National Merit Scholarship, majored in philosophy, went on to earn his Ph.D. in philosophy and spent his career as a university philosophy professor. The other became a Ph.D. biochemist and is doing cancer research at a large university out west.

I don't think it's an absolute rule that athletes are idiots, but European footballers may be a different matter, since they keep hitting that flying projectile with their heads.
It also sounds as if there is a more organized approach in the U.S. to getting all students to work at physical fitness, though the uncoordinated are the butt of jokes in both countries.

CW-- my undergrad university also had a gym requirement in the 60's. We were on a quarter term schedule, and had to take P.E. for two years! Women had to take one term of a team sport (I took soccer, or as some of you would say, football) and was no good at it; a dance class for one term and an individual sport for one term. I chose swimming for my individual sport. For the other three terms you could do what you wanted, and I also chose synchronized swimming. The best part about that was that a friend of mine and I were the only ones in the class and the instructor couldn't be bothered, so we just got to go swimming twice a week and mess around with our synchronized swimming moves for fun. Last time I tried, I could still do a back dolphin. I cound never quite finish a front dolphin. And last summer, my sister in law and I hopped in the lake and did manage a really rickety looking ballet leg for a few seconds. The sport does require athleticism, but I always loved the spoof of it that Martin Short and Mike Myers did on Saturday Night Live.

Dale, I haven't used your link yet, but I will--it's bookmarked, and thanks.

Wordmatic

k: Yes, drinking good beer, yes. You were meant to be one of my bosom companions

No pun intended

word: What a fine fellow you are. I went on to be the country's most resoundingly unpublished writer (two books and a slang dictionary the pubs wouldn't even consider) and one of it's least accomplished inventors (less than one percent of Alex Bell's)

quote:

I said that time spent on the sports field can't be spent in the library. I did not say, or suggest, that time not spent on the sports field must be spent in the library

Richard, my point was that one can take part in other activities (besides reading in the library), whatever they may be...and still read in a library. You could drink beer in a pub (our libraries don't allow beer) or take your motorcycle or Rolls Royce to a show...and still go to a library some other time. The same, of course, goes for people who play or watch sports. Obviously I picked those alternate experiences because those are experiences you enjoy. I could go to a Bulls game and you could go to a pub, but we could still both go to a library or read something intellectual.

There may be a negative relationship between sports and intelligence, but, if so, I think it's weak.

I agree with the point you make here; I took issue with the point you seemed to be making when you said, "...Well, that assumes that the person in the library has absolutely no other life...and just spends it in the library. ..."

Your original post was: "If you spend a large proportion of your time on the sporst field then you can't spend that time in the library - and vice versa." That of course could be the case for any activity...if you spent "a large proportion of your time" at a pub or in motorcycle or Rolls Royce shows, the same would be true. Who's to say that it is only those in sports who spend a "large proportion of their time" in that activity? Any activity could take up a "large proportion of your time," thus preventing that time being spent in a library.

At any rate, I think we are understanding each other perfectly here. My point is that you can participate in many different leisure activities in your life, and still spent time in intellectual pursuits. Yet, I do think there is a bias against people who like or play sports for leisure, versus other types of leisure activities.

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Yet, I do think there is a bias against people who like or play sports for leisure, versus other types of leisure activities.

It may be different in US schools, but in UK schools the bias was very definitely against those who preferred cerebral to sporting activities.

Same here, RE.

Ditto here in Georgia... sigh.

Where I am from, it depends on the age; that's true with earlier education. However, while the high school students value sports in our area, they also value brains. Perhaps it's different in other areas?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
However, while the high school students value sports in our area, they also value brains. Perhaps it's different in other areas?

Confession time:
I played sports for both school and University and continue to get pleasure , if somewhat diminished, from watching them on TV. In Britain the formerly compulsory participation in school games has declined so much that many comprehensive schools don't have sports fields or other sports or athletics facilities. One posible consequence is a generation of "couch-potatoes", afflicted by obesity and morbid inertia.
How I envy them.
By the way,

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wots a lyberry ?

There's an old TV series called Sliders that I was quite a fan of. In it a group of people "slide" from one alternative version of the Earth to another in every episode. One of the many that they visit is a world where mind and body are given equal importance in school and the sports game featured is bizarre - competitors do things like reciting the atomic weights of the elements while playing a game that's a bit like basketball. They can lose the ball or incur penalties through getting the questions wrong.

I loved the series and that was one of the best episodes. It's a shame that only three of the five seasons are available on DVD.

But did anybody find my link useful