And do the folks in the Midwest say "jiga hurts" for GHz?

Yes, I think so...though I don't hear the term that much.

Along these lines, I am supposed to introduce a member of the Korean Consulate to our Board of Directors next week. They sent me his name and what I was to say, but nothing about pronunciation. So, I e-mailed her back and said, "I assume it is to be pronounced "do-young-sook." I just got back the following e-mail: "His name is pronounced as 'do' in do, re, mi in the musical note; and 'suk' is similar to 'suck' sound." Glad I asked...though you might know I have to introduce him to our conservative Board of Directors as "Suck!"

Kalleh,

One of my trips to China was on Korean Airlines. I asked a flight attendant to teach me "thank you" in Korean. She wrote it, so I was able to memorize it. Perhaps it's a phrase that you can use with your Korean guest. Sounds sorta like ... "go mop SOOM knee dah." or maybe "goh mahp SUHM ni da."

Always helpful

~~~ jerry

Thanks, Jerry!

I had lunch with my daughter who has a wide array of friends (and she hates to be wrong!). I asked her about 'gigabyte,' 'err' and 'mauve.' She says 'jigabyte' she says, but she knew 'gigabyte' was right because her friends who are into computers use it. So...I may be wrong that I have heard people in computer stores and IT say 'jigabyte.'

She was shocked that 'err' rhymes with 'fur,' though she has heard a few people say 'mauve' to rhyme with 'stove.'

K., I quite forgot about mauve which I've always pronounced /'mov/ to rhyme with stove. Do you pronounce it /'mOv/ with the vowel from law? /'lO/

jheem, are you pronouncing 'stove' with a long 'o,' as in st-oh-v? I hope there isn't anything 'mauve' when we meet (soon! ) because I won't know what you mean!

Yes, the way I have only heard it pronounced is 'm aw v.'

I cannot believe how many words I apparently mispronounce!

It isn't mispronouncing! Not if people around you say it like that.

It isn't mispronouncing! Not if people around you say it like that.

For the record, I didn't say she was mispronouncing it, rather I asked how she pronounced it. The diphthong in mauve and stove for me is the same diphthong as in toad and road. I think I've heard some folks pronounce mauve so that it has the same vowel as in law and taut: i.e., the shrimp in IPA which looks like a c that has been been flipped on it vertical axis.

And it just dawned on me that GIF (a file format for pictures), which I pronounce /'gIf/, is also pronounced /'dZIf/, in parallel with gigabyte. And, I guess we shouldn't get into how folks pronounce terabyte, petabyte, exabyte, zettabyte, or yottabyte.

Kalleh said, "There has been an ongoing controversy in the Sun Times QT column about the pronunciation 'gigabyte' ... 'mauve' ... 'err' ..."

The latest update: Today's column quotes a reader who puts it into perspective.

quote:

---

Therese N., a Frankfurt, Germany, reader, writes:

"Tell your readers that, although it may be annoying to hear someone say 'mauve' without rhyming it with 'stove,' or 'err' without rhyming with 'fur,' please take a deep breath and enjoy speaking the English language. I sure miss it, seeing as when I want a box of matches, I have to pronounce, 'Streichholzschaltelchen.' Or how about when I jump in and drive off in my 'Personenkraftfahrzeug', or pay my monthly bill for my 'Krankenversicherung'? Yes, these both involve a lot of spit."

Konnten Sie mich bis zur nachsten Werkstatt abschleppen? Ich brauche noch mehr Kleiderbugel.

---

In the same column, one of his readers writes that there isn't such a word as irregardless, another word we have discussed ad nauseum. We all agree, I think, that we hate the word. However, if you use the OED as your source for words (and I do), irregardless very clear appears as a word.

That's another e-mail to Zay Smith (author of QT); he's definitely getting sick of us!

There is a major paper that was written by a committee at the Institute of Medicine, "To Err is Human." It is mentioned at most national heath care meetings still, even though it was done in 2000. I have only heard "err" pronounced as "air." As I was telling jheem when I saw him recently, if I am giving a talk, I want to pronounce it correctly. Yet, the audience will think I am a fool if I say "er." I suppose I will have to explain it. Is that what you would do?

Just put on an English accent and nobody will know...!

Back to err:

Yes, that's right. Because "error" is pronounced "air-or", many people think "err" must be pronounced "air". They are wrong, wrong, wrong!

This discussion has caused quite a stir;
You "air" in your claim that it's "er."
I rhyme it with 'air,'
And, now I declare:
The world's on my side, my dear sir!

I was at an international conference on patient safety for the last few days with 650 participants. It was the 5-year anniversary of the "To Err is Human" document from the Institute of Medicine, and this document really initiated the worldwide study of patient safety. That means in almost every speech I heard (many because some programs had 5-6 panelists), I heard the word "err" pronounced. The Americans were from all over, both coasts, south, north and mid-U.S., and of course the Americans pronounced "err" as "air." But that's not all. There were also many international speakers. I specifically heard people from New Zealand, England, Scotland, and Denmark. All used the word "err," and they all pronounced it as "air." Now, I don't believe it was because they had Americanized their speeches. They still said "shedule" and "figger" and the like. Their powerpoints still said "honour" and "orthopaedics." But...they all said "air" for "err."

Now, wordcrafters, I am wondering, where do people pronounce this word as the dictionary says it should be pronounced? On Mars?

Well, certainly, I've never heard "err" pronounced other than "ur". "Error" isn't really pronounced "air-or" to my ear; the first vowel is much shorter; more like "ehr-or" (or perhaps "ehr-er").

I'm with Kalleh on this one. I hear it pronounced 'air' about 90% of the time.

Dictionaries lag behind the times. I say [3:] ur, arnie says ur, probably a lot of people our age and class say it like that. I can't actually recall hearing it spoken. I know I have heard [E@] air, and am aware that it's a common enough alternative, but I don't feel old-fashioned saying ur. It hasn't yet been brought home to me that no-one uses this traditional pronunciation any more.

arnie: in most American accents the ehr and air vowels are the same: they don't distinguish Merry from Mary.

I have a few pet peeves of my own regarding pronunciation, and I think it's either (eye-ther or ee-ther?) a regional problem or an educational difference. The most obvious for me is:

I have folks who work for me (at the library) who pronounce our place of business as
Lie-bear-ee
totally missing the first R.

Of secondary import to me is the pronunciation of a local street . . . Morse. Spelled the way it is, I pronounce it with one syllable. Some around here, however, will pronouce it Morris

I have already welcomed you elsewhere, Caterwauller....but good to see you again! I have heard "lie-bear-ee," and I hate it too. It is a lot like those who say "Feb-u-ary."

I find, though, that librarians are very linguistically astute. When I was starting graduate school at UCSF, I walked into the medical library and asked the librarian where the magazines were. Thinking I was an interloper, she immediately demanded to see my ID. After seeing that I was actually a student, she explained that they're called "journals" in medical libraries.

As for "eether,", my mom used to say that "eye-ther" is more sophisticated. Still, unsophisticatedly, I say "eether."

Well, certainly, I've never heard "err" pronounced other than "ur". "Error" isn't really pronounced "air-or" to my ear; the first vowel is much shorter; more like "ehr-or" (or perhaps "ehr-er").

Funny, arnie, because the physicians (who looked your age) from Scotland and England (London, I believe) each pronounced "err" as "air." And, aput is right, I think. I don't see a difference between "air" and "ehr," though jheem will probably correct me on that! (Sometimes I think jheem really lives in England!)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

When it comes to a question about EEther or EYEther, I say either is correct.

But is it poe-tay-toe or poe-tah-toe?

Aah - let's call the whole thing off!

But, OH! If we call the whole thing off then we must part, and OH! if we ever parted, that would break my heart . . .
G-d bless Ira Gershwin, wherever he is.

Talking of street names, there's a Nadine Street near me. For many years we locals pronounced it "Nay-dyne". Then Chuck Berry's Nadine came out and people started calling it "Nay-deen" Street. The power of Rock 'n Roll!

Rock on, Dude!

There have been so many songs about particular streets . . .

Tobacco Road
Broadway

others??

quote:

---

When I was starting graduate school at UCSF, I walked into the medical library and asked the librarian where the magazines were. Thinking I was an interloper, she immediately demanded to see my ID. After seeing that I was actually a student, she explained that they're called "journals" in medical libraries.

---

Ack! All those specific delineations tend to send me into a kerfuffle (to honor another thread)!!!

We have magazines (for the general populace), journals (generally all professions have these specialized things), periodicals (this could be the whole group, but the common usage in my crowd is for newspapers, I think) . . . and ALL of them are really serials (anything that comes in a series, or, more acurately is ordered on a subscription basis, including Nancy Drew, travel books, encyclopedias and even non-series-like books by well-known authors that we'd never NOT purchase, like John Grisham).

quote:

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Originally posted by Caterwauller:
There have been so many songs about particular streets . . .

---

Get Your Kicks On Route 66, by Van Morrison.

Tinman

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caterwauller:
Rock on, Dude!

There have been so many songs about particular streets . . .

Tobacco Road
Broadway

others??

---

"Lonely Street!" My girlfriend lives in Indiana and I'm in Oregon.

Well, Asa, at least you're not in Heartbreak Hotel!

Anyone else know "Copperhead Road"?

and, of course "42nd St"

"Yellow Brick Road?" "Ventura Highway?"

As for "lonely Street," you bet it's lonely! One of us has got to move!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caterwauller:
Well, Asa, at least you're not in Heartbreak Hotel!

---

Nope! I'll be driving the "Yellow Brick Road" to the "Ventura Highway."

and probably spend the night at Hotel California.

To take us back to the original thread idea here, I heard a speaker this morning say "repairable" and had to look it up when I got home. I had always thought that it was "reparable", pronounced
RE-pra-bull, turns out the re-PAIR-a-bull is still ok.

Hubby had a good time teasing me for being a snob on that one!

Yeah but, those secondary pronunciations are often rarely heard. I have only heard it pronounced RE-pra-bull.

I don't think I've ever come across the word 'reparable'. It would for me be stressed on the first syllable as that is in its common antonym 'irreparable', and if I ever thought of using it it'd only be for abstract things that aren't irreparable: damage and harm mainly. For concrete things like shoes and cars that can be repaired I'd always say repairable.

Oh, and further pronunciation note: I'd keep the unstressed syllable and say REP-a-ra-bl. In general American accents keep more of these than S.British accents do, but REP-ra-bl sounds odd to me. I think perhaps I only permanently omit the unstressed vowel in common words like JEN-ral, TEMP-ra-cha.

OK - now, is pestle pronounced

pess-ull

or pes-tull

???

I missed this, CW. I pronounce it "pess-ull."

And, it reminds me of the great quote from "Court Jester": "The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!"

QT always catches me with pronunciations: Apparently "vagaries" is pronounced: Va-GAIR-eez, not VA-gar-eez. I say it the latter way.

I say Va-gar-eez, too. And I have always loved Danny Kaye!

Reviving a thread...

These questions come from OEDILF. How do you pronounce "acetylcholine?" In the Chicago area we say, "ah-see-til-KOH-lean." However, there seem to be many, including in the U.S., who say, "ASS-it-il-Koh-lean," which of course works much better for a limerick. What do you say, and what is right?

Also, do "monkey" and "donkey" rhyme? To me they don't, but apparently to some they do. If so, how to you say each?

First question - same way you do.

Second question - no they don't.Monkey has a schwa while donkey has a distinct short o vowel sound.
What was the OEDILF take?

I've never heard of anyone who pronounces 'monkey' /'maNki/ like 'donkey' /'doNki/, in any dialect. And both are such familiar words that it's unlikely anyone would adopt a spelling pronunciation for them.

I say 'acetyl' /@'si:t@l/, i.e. stress on the -ce-, so in combination it would come out as you say it. (Not that I've ever said 'acetylcholine'.) But though we say 'acetic' /@'si:tIk/ like that, 'acetate' /'æs@teIt/ has initial stress, so there's precedent for either.

That is really interesting. We in Chicago pronounce 'acetylcholine' like you do in England, while my U.S. friends pronounce it with the 'ASS' emphasis. Since it works better for a limerick that way, we have kept the pronunciation with the 'ASS' emphasis.

I don't recall the reference on OEDILF, Bob. I just remember that some people wanted the 2 to rhyme, though in the end I think it was changed. When I thought about it, though, my grandmother, who was from Scotland, definitely said, "dunk-ee," while I say "dawn-kee." Stated her way it would rhyme with "munk-ee."

The Chambers dictionary is Scottish but doesn't list the variant pronunciation of 'donkey'; they would if it was commonplace in Scotland.

They also show various stresses and lengths for 'acetyl' and 'acetylcholine'. It occurred to me that we have yet another precedent: 'acetylene' /@'set@li:n/. So acetylene, acetic, acetate/acetone, all familiar words pulling us in different directions. Partly explained by foot structure: -ate and -one are heavier syllables, so the stress clash acétóne is avoided. The suffix -ic attracts stress towards it (sulfúric v. súlfurous).

Wow. Chicago must be smart. Loads of people saying acetylcholine all the time. Even as a Chemistry teacher, I don't think I say or hear the word often enough to be able to definitely decide on just one pronuciation, but I think you would pronounce it like acetate and not like acetic or acetylene. If you name it more systematically (which few would), then the myriad pronunciations of ethanoylcholine are almost countless.

Monkey and donkey don't rhyme. There was a very popular advert here which invoved one of our fattest comedians talking to what he called a mun-keh. The mun bit would rhyme with the n in Rock'n'Roll and the keh would rhyme with the e in bet.

Wow. Chicago must be smart. Loads of people saying acetylcholine all the time.

Oh, but we are!

No, I just used to teach pharmacology to nursing students. The peripheral nervous system, as you know, features "acetylcholine." Because the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems are not easy for students, we in fact did find ourselves often talking about "acetylcholine." The reason it has come up now is because there is a biochemist (or similar...I am not sure) on the OEDILF site, and he has asked me to write some medical limericks with him. For some reason our focus has been on the peripheral nervous system, thus the discussion of the pronunciation. Whew! That was quite an explanation!

Monkey and donkey don't rhyme.

Now, Graham, just because you are from Cambridge and all, doesn't mean that you know how ever single dialect pronounces "donkey," does it? I do very clearly remember my grandmother saying "dunk-ee." Besides being born in Scotland, she moved here to Minnesota. Maybe it was the Minnesota influence.

Which brings up another question, is there competition between Oxford and Cambridge, like there is between Yale and Harvard?

My monkey is hunky
But my donkey is wonkey.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Is there competition between Oxford and Cambridge, like there is between Yale and Harvard?

---

Yes - they have a boat race every year to sort it out. All very civilised, what.

Seriously though, good grief yes. Mostly good-humoured, at least in the circles I move in. Although, come to think of it, it's very difficult to travel between the two on public transport - maybe there's a reason for that... I have a friend who's a fellow at Cambridge, and his girlfriend lectures at Oxford - it's a real faff for them to meet up at weekends, apparently .

Quote "... it's very difficult to travel between the two on public transport - maybe there's a reason for that..."

There is indeed a reason - and it was called Dr Beeching. In the late 1960s he was charged with the job of making the railways pay (a daft idea since railways have never made money since WW1, and nobody ever expects the roads to make money) and decided to start by closing those lines that didn't show a profit. The "University Line" that joined Oxford and Cambridge was one casualty of that ill-informed policy.

It's much easier to close a railway than it is to build one and thus Oxford and Cambridge remain separated.

Faff? LOL - what a great word! Before just asking, I actually looked it up (you people are rubbing off on me!). Here is a definition, for all the other poor Americans who hadn't heard it (maybe I'm the only one?)

quote:

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Originally posted by jo:
My monkey is hunky
But my donkey is wonkey.

---

And my hubby is chubby. (But don't you DARE tell him I said it!)

No, I hadn't heard of "faff" either, and I too just love it. Tsuwm's dictionary defines it as, "to spend your time doing a lot of unimportant things instead of the thing you should be doing." I surely have a lot of faff going on during the weekends!

How many other words have 4 letters and 3 of them are the same consonant?

I didn't think it might be mainly a British thing until after I posted it, but I'm glad I introduced a fun word to you! I'd say Tsuwm's definition is spot on, although on a slightly different note it can also be the action equivalent of waffling (going round the Wrekin to do something instead of the direct route).

Now, I think the Wrekin phrase I just quoted isn't just a Britishism, it's probably a Midlandsism too! Non-Midlanders I know tend not to use it - am I right, compatriots?

Interestingly, the French word for 'waffle' (or pad out one's speech, at any rate) is 'étoffer'. Wonder why the letter f is so useful for denoting such an action?

quote:

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am I right, compatriots?

---

Right you are! It's not a phrase I've ever heard before. If anyone's interested, the Wrekin is a hill in the West Midlands.

Here in London we'd probably say "all around the houses".

How do you pronounce "vagary?" I was confused by the MW pronunciation guide, which has three pronunciations.