My pronunciation of scallops has /ɒ/ as the first vowel and /ə/ as the second.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
For example, I do not have two different vowel sounds in father and not: i.e., I pronounce both vowels /ɑ/, an open back unrounded vowel (link). But, RP (UK English) does distinguish, pronouncing them respectively /ɑː/ and /ɒ/. Some Canadian English speakers distinguish them, too (goofy?), but I am not sure that some Canadians don't mimic an RP-ish pronunciation for prestige reasons.

I don't know anything about that. I always thought that Canadians had the cot-caught merger.

I pronounce it ['skæləps]

Dictionary.com and M-W both offer an audio of the pronunciation of most words. For scallop. Dictionary.com gives one audio pronunciation, M-W gives two. Note they actually give two and three pronunciations, respectively, but only one and two audio pronunciations. I pronounce it this way.

quote:

/æ/: same as the vowel sound in cat /'kæt/. The A-H Dictionary lists that pronunciation second, after one with a /ɑ/: the vowel in General American pronunciation of father /'fɑðɚ/. Was it a waiter or a relative?

It was my oldest daughter...and she was so positive. I pronounced it like "father" (and always have), not "cat."

I need to spend more time on the IPA system. I have not mastered that yet, unfortunately.

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:


I need to spend more time on the IPA system. I have not mastered that yet, unfortunately.

I'm sure I've linked this before. It might help.

If you have linked to that site, I haven't bookmarked it. I did that today. It is exceptionally helpful. Do I see that "father" one there, though?

By the way, I copied z's answer about the AHD and sent it to her, and she then gave in.

When she "corrected" my pronunciation, chuckling at me, I told her a tiny white lie...that is, that Bob and z say that there are no mispronunciations. Let's just say that rattled her a bit. I then, after enjoying her reaction, did my motherly duty and explained the regionalisms/dialect aspect, admitting that there is the possibility of a mispronunciation.

BTW, what is the difference (and I know we've discussed it before) between a dialect and a regionalism? Not much, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:
If you have linked to that site, I haven't bookmarked it. I did that today. It is exceptionally helpful. Do I see that "father" one there, though?

For you the vowel in "father" is probably /ɑː/

Here is what he had posted: father /'fɑðɚ/ and that confused me.

Interestingly, I realize that I say scalloped edges on something differently...with this sound: æ

Here is what he had posted: father /'fɑðɚ/ and that confused me.

Yes, you and I probably pronounce father the same. The vowel in cat is /æ/. The vowel in father is /ɑ/. (I didn't indicate length as goofy did, which I probably should have; vowel length is not really phonemic in English.)

father /'fɑ:ðɚ/
fathom /'fæðəm/

As you can see, the IPA glyphs are different, ɑ vs æ.

what is the difference (and I know we've discussed it before) between a dialect and a regionalism?

That's a tough one. In some language areas, there can be three distinct layers of language: the standard dialect (usually called a standard language), the standard dialect but with a local accent influenced by the local dialect, and the local dialect. In Bonn, Germany, where I lived, there was a definite Rhenish accent when people spoke informally that other Germans could identify with the region, even though the syntax and vocabulary was not different from standard High German. For example, Standard High German ich 'I' is pronounced /ɪç/, but in the local accent it is often pronounced /ɪʃ/. (English does not have the sound represented by /ç/, but it is halfway between the ch in the German pronunciation of Bach, or Scots English pronunciation of logh 'lake'. /ʃ/ is the sh sound in fish or ship.) The local dialect sometimes differs markedly from the standard language, therefore Standard German er kommt /er kɔmt/ 'he comes, is coming' is hä kütt /hɛ kyt/ in the local dialect.

quote:

Originally posted by zmježd:
(I didn't indicate length as goofy did, which I probably should have; vowel length is not really phonemic in English.)

I wrote it /ɑː/ because that's how it is on the BBC site. Some English vowels are sometimes written long, sometimes short. It's not important imo.

Oh, my. I thought of all of you tonight. I was at dinner with my colleagues, and they were laughing at someone's pronunciation of "ask," being "aks." We in the U.S. have all heard it. They thought the person should be told that it was an incorrect pronunciation so that he/she wouldn't be embarrassed. Then they talked about the "mis"pronunciations we mid-westerners do with Oregon. Then Missouri came up (which has no right or wrong pronunciation it turns out). Then someone said how she hated when people say the "s" with Illinois. Secretly, I do too. But I pointed out how we then "correctly" pronounce Des Plaines ("s" is sounded in both parts), even though that is completely the incorrect French pronunciation of the word.

Anyway, I was truly the "descriptivist," you'll all be proud to know!

I was reading about "aks" only a week or week or so ago, but I can't remember where now. It appears that there were two forms in Old English, acsian and ascian. The former was standard until about 1600. Several English dialects, including AAVE, still use the former version.

Here's something about it: http://linguistlist.org/issues/7/7-1048.html

quote:

Originally posted by Kalleh:

Anyway, I was truly the "descriptivist," you'll all be proud to know!

All?

I had fun rereading this thread again. I see I brought this up another time, but again today I heard a speaker say "expecially." Is that pronunciation used in the UK? What areas of the US?

I can't say that I've noticed anyone say "expecially", but may well have missed it. It's possible that it was just a slip of the tongue; did he say it more than once?

I just read a book where a noted grammarian says the "exsp" and "aks" sounds have been in use in English for hundreds of years in some regional dialects. I recently heard an interview with a southern police officer who used both sounds frequently during the talk.

Well, Old English had acsian and ascian 'to ask', and that would be before 1100 CE. Not sure what the first word is.

[Fixed typo in formatting.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

quote:

It's possible that it was just a slip of the tongue; did he say it more than once?

It's pretty common here in the US, particularly with the African American community.

Reviving a thread...

We've probably discussed this someplace here, but I am wondering about the pronunciation of either - I say it with a long e. I had always thought those in the east (and those with English accents) pronounced it with a long i. However, I notice that almost everyone I know in the Chicago area says it with a long i. It seems odd to me to hear a Chicagoan, or others in the midwest, saying either with a long i.

Has the long i won out?

I hear both, without any obvious distribution. Let's call the whole thing off.

I would have thought everyone in England says either with a long i.

At least in the US, Chilean sea bass has become a popular dinner item in restaurants. I ordered it in a restaurant last night, and the waiter corrected my pronunciation of it. I pronounced it "chi-LAY-un," which is how I always hear it. He pronounced it "Chill-ee-un" I guess seems more logical. How do you pronounce it?

I've no idea how the sea bass is pronounced, but I'd say "Chill-ee-un", which is the only way I've heard it. Those miners that were rescued a couple of years ago were described that way.

I would ask him how to pronounce "tip".

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I would ask him how to pronounce "tip".

He wasn't from Paris by any chance was he?

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I would ask him how to pronounce "tip".

I thought seriously about that, z, because our whole family was there, and I was a little embarrassed. Indeed, my "pronunciation maniac" daughter was sitting right beside me and had quite a chuckle. He did seem a little French, arnie, though it was an Italian restaurant.

Am I alone in that pronunciation? Perhaps the waiter was right.

Eskimo prostitute: Chill-lay-in'

I pronounce Chilean with the accent on the second or middle syllable.

And that middle syllable is pronounced how?

/eɪ/ Like the diphthong in they.

{edited to correct word choice.]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: zmježd,

Aha! That is what I wanted to hear.