Do you pronounce the "h" in the word "vehicle"? I just heard it almost hilighted in the pronunciation on a tv show, by two different people, and I realize, I don't say it at all!

I say "vee-ickle".

The only times I've heard the h pronounced have been in TV cartoons and the like when the speaker is meant to sound untutored.

I've pronounced the "h" in "vehicle" probably most of my life. I don't remember exactly when I or how I discovered that the "h" is supposed to be silent. The AHD's pronunciation is what I think of as the "correct" pronunciation. I still pronounce it "vee-hi-cle" much of the time, without even thinking, though occasionally I get it right. I hear others pronounce it both ways, also.

Words are often purposely mispronounced in TV programs for the sake of a few laughs. The problem is, not everyone knows the word is mispronounced. Thus, inadvertently, the show helps to perpetuate a mispronunciation. Such was the case with MASH, in which Rizzo, an uneducated "southern hick" from Louisiana who was in charge of the motor pool, always said "vee-hi-cle", accenting the first syllable. Of course, other times words are unintentionally mispronounced on TV by people who should know better, words such as "terrism" for "terrorism" and "nuklar" or "nuyular" for "nuclear".

By the way, there are quite a few English words with silent letters. The "l" in "palm" is silent, something I didn't know until I was in college. The "t" in "often" was silent from about the 15th century, and it is only in the last ten years or so that I have heard people pronouncing the "t". See the Usage Note in the AHD.

Tinman

No "h" here and I pronunce the "i" as the neutral schwa sound not as a distinct "i".

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

Morgan, while I have to say I hear it with the "h" just as often as without the "h", I say it without the "h".

My two cents: I pronounce the "H" in "vehicle" but it's a soft "H". I also pronounce the "soft H" (is there such a term?) in "whale" and have been soundly criticized by troglodyte acquaintances for speaking (to use a Britishism) "posh."

And, yes, some people do pronounce the "T" in "often" but you'll notice that this is the third pronunciation listed. Informally, the order listed in the dictionary translates to:
1st listed - The CORRECT way as widely agreed upon by right-thinking individuals, myself included.
2nd listed - The more or less acceptable deviation from the norm used by both free spirits and those who simply aren't aware of the 1st listed pronunciation.
3rd listed - Well, OK, if you absolutely insist, say it this way and, technically, you won't be wrong, but Jeeze!

BUT!! What is all this nonsense about no "L" in "palm"?? No "L" in "salmon," of course not! No "L" in "almond," no argument from me. But you pronounce "palm" to rhyme with "Sam"?! And the dictionary backs you up, yet??! You pronounce it in "palmetto," don't you? Or maybe you don't! Good Lord (perhaps pronounced "Good ord"), I'm shocked and dismayed at yet another example of the trampling of our beloved language.

It's official. The world is going to hell in a handbasket!

quote:

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Originally posted by C J Strolin:
But you pronounce "palm" to rhyme with "Sam"?!

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No, I say it to rhyme with bomb, which is a homophone of balm.

Nope, nope! Sorry! Once again, everyone's wrong but me.

It's "PaLm Sunday," not "Pomb Sunday." Would you pronounce that particular carnival sideshow prognosticater a "pomb reader"? (Well, actually, you might, but the point is you'd be wrong.)

Or, to put it another way, if someone in a crowded theatre shouted "It's a bomb!" would you rush over to rub it into your dry skin?

No arguments, please. The "L" is vital!

I say "pa-L-m". However, how in the world do you say "almond"? It has to have the "L" sound, correct??? Otherwise, is it "amond"? I have never heard it pronounced that way. Now, I don't say "sa-L-mon"; I do say "sam-en".

And, I consider the pronunctiation of "of-T-en" as just plain illiterate. It reminds me saying, "expecially."

quote:

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Originally posted by C J Strolin:
BUT!! What is all this nonsense about no "L" in "palm"?? No "L" in "salmon," of course not! No "L" in "almond," no argument from me. But you pronounce "palm" to rhyme with "Sam"?! And the dictionary backs you up, yet??! You pronounce it in "palmetto," don't you?

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Now, now, calm down, C J! Have a beer...or a toke.

The AHD says the "l" is not pronounced in "palm", but we all know you'll take care of that once you've finished rewriting the OED. "Palm" rhymes with "mom" and a host of other words.

While the "l" is not pronounced in "palm", it is in "palmetto", according to the AHD. I know, I know. You're going to say that's not logical. What's that got to do with it?

No, the "l" is not pronounced in "salmon", but tell that to a Southerner. The AHD gives four pronunciations for "almond"; two with the "l" sound, two without. I probably pronounce it both ways, though the "l" sound is very slight.

You shouldn't have to correct other's mistakes by rewriting the OED and the AHD and all the other dictionaries out there. Why don't you write your own CJD?

You must be tolerant with us poor, imperfect mortals. We try, but we find it hard to live up to your loftly ideals.

quote:

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It's official. The world is going to hell in a handbasket!

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Finally! Something we can agree on! By the way, how did that phrase get started? Why a handbasket?

Tinman

quote:

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Originally posted by tinman:
"Palm" rhymes with mom and a host of other words.

Tinman

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Not here it doesn't !

Here "palm" rhymes with "harm", "charm", "alarm", "farm" not to mention "calm" and "balm". Although how you pronounce any of these words over there I have no idea. Just trust me. In England "palm" and "mom" don't rhyme although we agree about the "l" not being pronounced.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

That, of course, depends on the dictionary. I'd believe anything of Webster's!

By the way, in the UK "palm" rhymes almost perfectly with "marm" (a posh abbreviation for "madam"). We don't use "mom", of course, we would say "mum"

Richard English

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard English:
We don't use "mom", of course, we would say "mum"

Richard English

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You might, now me I'm a working class lad. I always called my mom, "mom".


"Mum" was what the posh kids from the private estate said. Down on our council estate it was - and is - always "mom".


Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

The posh kids in my area called their mothers "mater"!

Maybe it's a North/South difference.

Richard English

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard English:
The posh kids in my area called their mothers "mater"!

Maybe it's a North/South difference.

Richard English

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If anyone round our way had called his mom "mater" I wouldn't have given much for his chances of reaching the second year. (That's the year you are in aged 12 to 13 - I don't know the US equivalent)

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

How do you pronounce the word "medieval"?

Is it pronounced (mee-dee-evil), (meed-ee-ee-vil) or (mid-evil)? I have always had a hard time with it. Any replies?

OK...let's see how my pronunciations stack up....

vehicle = vee ick (schwa)l
whale = way (schwa)l
often = awf t(schwa)n **see note below on this one
palm = pawm
Palmetto = Pal met oh
salmon = sam mon
almond = awl mond
bomb = bom
medieval = mid eve (schwa)l

And for the record, I agree that "harm", "charm", "alarm", "farm" all rhyme with one other, and so do palm, calm, and balm, but these two groups do not rhyme.

And I call my mother "Mah!"

**About a year ago, I was blatantly told by someone from another part of the country that the "t" should not be said in "often". So I stopped using it, it took some time to get used to, but I was able to change my pronunciation of that word. Since then, I have noticed that absolutely everyone in my part of the country says the "t" and I sounded like an outsider! So, I have started to pronounce the "t" again, and I feel better about it!

I pronounce it med-ee-ee-vl. Note the short e in the first syllable.

No "L" in "almond," no argument from me.
-------------------------------------
CJ, you masochist! Why would you want to cut the "L" out of your nuts?

quote:

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Originally posted by Morgan:
Do you pronounce the "h" in the word "vehicle"?

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I don't, but I certainly should!

As to "palm," etc:

There once was a lady of Guam,
Who observed, "The Pacific's so calm,
I'll swim out, for a lark!"
She met a large shark.
Let us now sing the 23rd Psalm.

Does that work for you, CJ?

A fisherman burdened with mammon
Researching solutions to famine
Was granted his wish
For a really big fish
When he caught the Twenty-Third Psalmon

quote:

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Originally posted by BobHale:

Here "palm" rhymes with "harm", "charm", "alarm", "farm"

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To make that work, it seems to me that one would have to insert an "r" into "palm" and dump the "l", OR invent "hom", "chom", "alom", and "fom". Which is it? Perhaps there's an alternative that I've overlooked.

In regard to "medieval"....I've always said MED-E-EVIL. However, a good friend of mine who is well enough versed in things medieval that he taught history at a major U.S. university when he was younger than any of his students, always says MED-EVAL. But, What does he know??!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Howell:

quote:

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Originally posted by BobHale:

Here "palm" rhymes with "harm", "charm", "alarm", "farm"

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To make that work, it seems to me that one would have to insert an "r" into "palm" and dump the "l", OR invent "hom", "chom", "alom", and "fom". Which is it? Perhaps there's an alternative that I've overlooked.
!!

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It's almost impossible to do this written down as I have no more idea how you pronounce "palm" or "harm" than you have how I pronounce them.

The best I can say is that for me the pronunciation is as if "palm" were spelled "pahm" and "harm" were spelled "hahm".

The Cambridge Dictionary on line lists harm with different UK and US pronunciations while it lists palm with the same UK and US pronunciatins so that it looks as if the UK "palm" and "harm" both correspond to the vowel sound in the US "palm". That doesn't sound right to me but as I haven't heard you say either word I can't give you a definitive answer.

In "harm", "alarm" etc. we use a long "a" and do not enunciate the "r" *.
In "palm", "Psalm" etc. we use the same long "a" and do not enunciate the "l".


* note- some dialects (for example Scots) do roll the "r" distinctly but this isn't the generally accepted pronunciation.

That's about the best I can do by way of a written explanation.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

Indeed. But it also needs an IPA trainer and an IPA training event!

Richard English

I would add, by the way, that the vowel sound in all these words is easy to remember - it rhymes with the first syllable of "Derby"

Does it not, British readers?

(US readers have every right to be confused)

Richard English

quote:

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This community needs IPA

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India Pale Ale? I'll drink to that!

...that when I saw the heading "This community needs IPA" my first thought was India Pale Ale rather than International Phonetic Alphabet.

As a language teacher I'm obviously a very good drinker.

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

Is "simulpost" a good neologism for what just happened? Is there a better word ?

Vescere bracis meis.

Read all about my travels around the world here.
Read even more of my travel writing and poems on my weblog.

Strangely, although the British invented IPA (India Pale Ale) as a beer style that would survive the long trip from London to the thirsty colonial rulers in India, it is now rather rare as a beer style here.

Many of the drinks called IPA are nothing of the sort.

One of the best IPAs I have drunk in recent years is Goose Island IPA - from the Goose Island Brewery in Chicago! US readers who live outside of Illinois might find it hard to get (I understand that there are sometimes problems taking beer across state boundaries); UK readers can just pop into the local Safeway.

Try it, it's well worth a sup.

Richard English

"Simulpost" will do me. Perhaps CJ will add it to the OED for us.

Richard is just being nice to those of us who live in America. Don't kid yourself. Now that I have had several English ales, Goose Island's IPA is a weak sister. (Now, I am wondering why it isn't brother, rather than sister. Sexism raises its ugly head, once again!)

I have been trying to find some samples of pronunciations since it is clear that many of those who post here have no idea what the others sond like.

I have found a few samples, including a site that promises to give examples of just about evety accent and dialect in the world. It's at http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/Dialinks.htm#General. Sadly, most of the links don't work although those that do are good. Lancashire and Yorkshire both work, as does the Potteries. Not Black Country or Surrey, sadly.

I'll keep looking.

Update.

Repeat after me. You can rely on the BBC!

Look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/multimedia_zone/audio_video/index.shtml. If you go to "oral history you can even browse by country and there's a wonderful clip from a Kentish lady whose adventures during the War in her father's Rudge Combination must have been fun!

Richard English

[This message was edited by Richard English on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 4:39.]

This was the one that caused all the arguments when I was a lad, as I had a Canadian friend who pronounced it to rhyme with case, a Cornish grandmother who rhymed it with cause, while most people I knew rhymed it with cars.

I wouldn't naturally pronounce the l in palm or almond, in fact I barely ever pronounce the t in water, but as a Chemistry teacher occasionally I have to pronounce the r in iron to distinguish it from its homophone, ion, which means something different altogether.

I wander if the t sound is erroneously added to often for the same reasons that many mispronounce the letter aitch - it is usually sloppy to drop h's or t's.

From Graham Nice:

quote:

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I wander

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It does make one wonder, don't it?!

I never would have thought of any confusion between ironand ion

My neighbor, a South African woman of English ancestry, once wrote a note to my girlfriend, Wanda. "Dear Wonder, ....." In my own General American dialect there's a world of difference between Wanda and wonder.

How about the face at the base of the vase, as in "Ode On A Grecian Urn" ?

Can museamuse answer the old question, "How much does a Grecian Urn?

Posting once a week has opened my eyes to just how much time I was spending on this site. Just reading a week's worth of everyone's posts took some 10 or 15 minutes. To respond to every point that caught my eye would require at least one break for meals so...

An overview:

The "L" in "palm" - In the interest of logic, may I suggest we all either pronounce it or, if you're unable to pronounce "palm" in the way it was obviously intended to be pronounced (i.e. my way, the correct way) be bold and start spelling it "pahm."

The "L" in "almond" - It's "AH-mund" for a very good reason which is that it just is, that's all! As a very wise man recently said, "What's logic got to do with it?" (Actually, I said it. B.H. was just quoting me.)

Re-writing the dictionaries - I'm almost sorry I brought that up. You do realize, don't you, that it was a joke? Just something in keeping with the image I've created for myself on this board as a megalomaniacal pedantic genius who is (dare I say it?) both rarely incorrect and widely adored by one and all.

Medieval - "mid-EE-val" Is the world undergoing a syllable drought that I haven't been informed of? If not, why chunk in extra syllables where they're not needed? Next you be telling me it's "PAH-lum" for "palm" the way some people say "FIL-lum" for "film." Those people, of course, need to be slapped.

Hic's limerick - "calm/psalm," fine. Perfect, in fact. But "Guam"? Not quite. Still, for the purposes of a limerick, close enough.

J.T.'s limerick - Nice wordplay but I'm not sure I get your point. Again, for the purposes of a limerick, clever wordplay is often sufficient.

R.E.'s sites on pronunciation - Very useful and informative, R.E.! Thanks much. Plus, any time you spend posting information unrelated to beer is time well appreciated.


That's it till next Monday. For this thread, anyway.

[This message was edited by C J Strolin on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 12:48.]

CJ, You are making me laugh with the extra syllables! My grandmother (still alive and kicking at 87) says "Elm" Street with 2 sylables, something to the effect of Ellumm Street.

Reviving a thread...

There has been an ongoing controversy in the Sun Times QT column about the pronunciation of 'gigabyte.' The OED and computer nerds say it is pronounced, "gig-a-bite," with a hard "g." However, all the world pronounces it "jig-a-bite."

One of my most favorite comments was "This is one of those cases where you have a choice of being wrong with everyone else or being thought to be an idiot." The person went on to say that she feels that way every time she says the word 'mauve.' Apparently the correct definition rhymes with 'stove.' I say 'm aw v.'

Also, they said the OED says that 'err' rhymes with 'fur.' Is that true?

1. gig (hard g) - in 22 years in IT I never heard anyone pronounce it jig (soft g)

2. no they don't rhyme, very nearly but not quite

In the south of England it's:

Gigabyte with a hard g; mauve rhymes exactly with with stove; err rhymes exactly with fur.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kalleh:
Also, they said the OED says that 'err' rhymes with 'fur.' Is that true?

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Yes, that's right. Because "error" is pronounced "air-or", many people think "err" must be pronounced "air". They are wrong, wrong, wrong!

Tinman

For me: gigabyte with a [g], mauve with the GOAT vowel [@U], err with the NURSE vowel [3:], and error with the DRESS vowel [e]. But err with SQUARE is common too. I haven't heard variations on the others; I haven't heard anyone outside the field say gigabyte (which is almost always just said 'gig' [gIg] anyway).

What we need is not only IPA in the form of SAMPA, but just as importantly lexical sets for dialectal comparison of the vowels. The lexical sets were devised to be clear examples of groups having a certain vowel. So you can say that 'salmon' has the vowel of TRAP, not the vowel of PALM. This is independent of what the exact phonetic value of TRAP or PALM is in your dialect.

There are more set distinctions than any one dialect has. So the BATH set is pronounced like the TRAP set in American and Northern English, but like the PALM set in Southern English. But there are a large number of words that behave like this -- class, half, path, past, dance, plant -- so the BATH set captures a generalization about the vowel system.

Then we can talk about system differences: In American LOT and PALM have the same vowel. In England PALM and START have. Most varieties of English have the same vowel in NORTH and FORCE. In England this is the same vowel as in THOUGHT. For many Americans THOUGHT has the same vowel as LOT/PALM.

But the lexical set words are chosen to be clear exemplars. If you pronounce it like e.g. both LOT and PALM, it's a LOT-type word if it's spelt with a simple O, and PALM-type if with A, and this normally allows you to predict how a different accent groups it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: aput,

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard English:
In the south of England it's:

Gigabyte with a hard g; mauve rhymes exactly with with stove; err rhymes exactly with fur.

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I'd go along with all of that.


Thanks for reviving the thread: I missed some of it first time round. You wouldn't believe how many ways people find of pronouncing the first syllable of my real surname, nor the agression with which I was corrected in my youth. Is Almond really that hard to say?

I have never heard gigabyte pronounced with an initial /dZ/, even in jest. Whenever somebody says to me "to air is human, to forgive divine", I usually say "indeed". I think it's a lost cause, because the back-formed pronunciation (from error) has pretty much replaced the older one. Same with flaccid which is now pronounced /'fl{sId/ rather than /'fl{ksId/. See American English SAMPA page.

aput, I'm in the planning stages for setting up an phonology wiki to help people learn SAMPA/IPA and how to apply it to their descriptions of language, rather than using the modified English spelling system of transcription. Send me a PM if you're interested in contributing.

Same as the last few posts. It would never occur to me to pronounce "gigabyte" with anything other than a hard g. I've certainly never heard anyone say it any other way.

However, there is a possible reason, I suppose. People may use a soft j sound by analogy with "gigantic", which shares the same root. However, then they should by rights be saying "jaegabite"

So, everyone here, including the American, says 'gigabyte' with a hard "g." Now, I can understand the Brits because it is the OED we are talking about. However, I have never heard it pronounced that way...including in computer stores or in IT departments. As for 'mauve,' I am probably just wrong. As for 'err,' I have never heard it pronounced as "er."

Perhaps it is a midwestern pronunciation.

jheem, when you get that phronology wiki set up, please let us know. I am very interested in learning SAMPA/IPA.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kalleh,

This jigabyte stuff reminds me of the abstract data type in C/C++ and Java: char. I was brought up pronouncing it /tSAr/ like the char in charwoman, but one day I heard somebody pronounce it /k{r/ as the "char" in character. It seems to be a bicoastal distribution with mine on the left coast and the other on the right one. And do the folks in the Midwest say "jiga hurts" for GHz?